Arguments with Jon (Good Natured)

Edited and slightly abridged, I bring to you the latest musing between my good friend, Jon, and myself.

These Facebook threads sometimes carry on for days, and the epic Death Penalty thread got a bit heated, but they're usually chock full of serious debate about reality, morality, ethics, physics, religion, spirituality, the land speed capability of various cuts of luncheon meat, llamas, and the mammaries of various species of domesticated animal. Without further delay, I present to you the following:

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Jon The good news is, it's just a matter of time before computers will be able to make it look like anybody did anything, and we'll no longer be able to believe what we see unless we see it in person. Of course, it'll get worse before it gets better - some important figure will have to get photoshop-framed, then executed, ...then proven innocent. Hang in there..

Me

i know, right? have you seen the photoshop youtube, where they take a rather large, unattractive woman, and they make her look thin and hot? and eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, so where does that leave the court system?

Jon

Well, like I say - we'll have to execute someone who was innocent, then prove innocence after the fact. Then, two things will happen. The death penalty will be banned, and film will be in-admissable as evidence (doesn't mean that the cops can't use it to track a perp, they just cant use it as proof of a crime).

Me

If you can't use film or video, then it'll be almost impossible to convict without forensic evidence. They'll just rely on video and photographic experts to convince the jury that they're not tampered with, convict anyway, and the death penalty will stay on the books.

Jon

I know you WANT the death penalty to stay on the books Kev, but if what I think happens does happen, some states will do away with it. Like if they execute a wrongfully convicted football star, or golf-pro. That should get our attention. You know our priorities :)

Me

Never happen. Celebrities rarely get charged, much less convicted, and even if they do charge them, it's almost impossible to get a fair trial, because of the media circus, and even if you get a conviction, their sentencing is almost laughable in comparison to John Q. Public. The death penalty wouldn't even be on the table in such a case. Life in prison, maybe. The death penalty will stay on the books in ultra conservative states, because there will always be another rapist serial killer, cannibal, or child murderer who everyone wants to see dead. In fact, given the desensitization to violence of modern society, and of the next generation in particular, due to video games and bombardment by graphic news and television, I'd say that it's only going to get less humane. I would not rule out seeing pay per view or televised gladiatorial contests between prisoners in my lifetime.

Jon

You're right - OJ got off scott-free. Michael Vik didn't isn't persona-non-grata everywhere in the country for doing what, being mean to dogs, and soon, Tiger Woods will be every woman's fantasy man for having an affair.

No chance we'll ever over-react when a celeb slips up.

Of course, you could put some money on it. Kev. Honor system - any state rolls back the death penalty within the next 10 years, and you and I will go over it. Loser flies to the winner's state and takes the family out to dinner. :)

Me

I'm not doubting some states will, because the death penalty is under assault all the time, but I doubt any truly red state will do so, and in the states where it is already well utilized, I see it becoming a harder line. But, one thing I love about you, is you're irrepressible faith in mankind. I'd like to have faith in the human race, but it's constantly living down to my expectations. For every story of inspiration and hope, there's 10 more that make me sick. But, if it wasn't for eternal optimists like yourself, the world would collapse into a singularity of cynicism and sarcasm, from which no cheer or whimsy could escape. And I would host a talk show there. Sometimes I wish I was 6 years old, catching frogs again.

Jon

Mother T. Ghandi. Jesus. The lesson is clear. It only takes one good guy to offset...

Me

dammit. i used you're instead of your for about the 3rd time in the last week. the internet is killing my spelling and grammar.

Jon

Don't get two upset over it. :)

Me

Not particularly. The teachings are there, but few pay more than lip service to them. Those that are truly self-less and inspirational are few and far between. And it may be true that the majority of people aren't that way out of malice, they're just wrapped up in their own self absorption. It takes a catastrophe or tragedy to make them step up and do great things, but after the urgency has passed, and the memory has faded a bit, they go right back to puttering through life and being petty and self-absorbed.

Me

lol, i'll try not two.

Jon

Kev, one of the things that Free Society has to learn, and it will, but it's going to take time, is the notion of personal sacrafice for the living. Our problem is, we don't understand it's value, so we don't do it for each other, only for our own. The more wars that are fought and senseless slaughter takes place, the more un-sung heros we'll see. We already have a whole department of them in Langly VA. The only other group who gets gold stars for their work is Kindergarten.

It'll happen. It has to. You coudn't exterminate every human being on the planet if you tried. Not to be confused with extinct. An asteroid might could... :)

Jon

I think what I'm trying to impress on you is your cynicism is dead-on-balls-accurate. Now you need to acknowledge the other side of the coin, my friend.

Me

I would grant you that on one condition. That it will only happen when we push ourselves to the brink of utter destruction, most of us die out, and the rest learn it the very hard way. And then the human race will promptly forget that lesson, probably within 2 generations, as their childrens' children have no personal experience of it, and the whole process will repeat itself, ad infinitum. Unless we develop the tech to finally wipe everyone out once and for all, through sheer stupidity and short sightedness.

Jon

Because it is there, and it is a force. It just works slower. Like gravity vs strong nuclear. Assholes are everywhere and work in short cycles. Good people are few and far between, but their force is inescapable.

Me

Cyclical. Until we develop something so vastly destructive that we finally break the cycle and succumb to our own stupidity and greed.

Jon

Yes, I just erased my post. It's cyclical and recursive. We have several of them all working together, but I do think evil is dampening.

Jon

You could say that evil is only locally scoped :)

Me

Evil is given free reign to run rampant, in order to test our mettle and fortitude. To see if we'll choose to do the right thing, and not just when it's easy or convenient. Because goodness and virtue mean nothing if they're not chosen with free will and tempered by temptation and suffering. Good is ultimately more powerful than evil. Love is ultimately more enduring than hate, because evil and hate, while powerful, are eventually self destructive and exclusive. You have to pass through hell to truly appreciate heaven, and you have to have nothing to truly appreciate what you're given.

Jon

Sure. Evil is locally scoped. Good is global. Good works over long distances. Evil can take hold more readily over shorter distances, but the more it grows, the more good takes over.

Gravity = Good, Evil = strong nuclear force

Help me with this metaphor, will you? Where does the weak nuclear force fit in. It's a barrier between the two, right? Without it, the the cycle breaks and you get a stasis which is death.

Me

Maybe humanity is the weak nuclear force. Without us, and our free will, it'd all be a pointless, mindless exercise.

Jon

There you go. Hercules keeping the world from collapsing into a singularity. Or at least slowing it.

Jon

Dark matter = God, one step ahead of us. :)

Me

Or Samson, bringing down the temple. Our choice. Our philosophy is not so different. We both see the glass of water. You just prefer to see it half full, and I see it half empty. Yin and Yang. Tell you what, if they ever post for angelic positions, I'll apply for wrath and vengeance, and you take justice and mercy.

Jon

As much as I want to argue with you, I just can't bring myself to do it. You're spot-on. :)

Me

Your two kind. :)

Jon

Know I'm knot.

Jon

You need to know, Kev - on the way home I stopped at 7-11 for bread and eggs. The cashier rang it up.

$6.66

Me

That's because eggs are evil.

Jon

And bread is dead.

Me

I was going to say something funny about goat nipples, insuring that this thread had completely covered the gamut between serious theological and sociological discussion and complete absurdity, but I've got nothin'.